Discussion:
Vista again (bug#396444)
Stephan Kulow
2008-06-07 10:05:26 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I'm still unable to reproduce a breakage unless I really
try hard to break it.

So I would be really grateful for everyone having time
and a spare vista to test - vista can be easily repaired
if you have an original DVD (these OEM recovery DVDs are
unfortunately pretty useless ;(

Currently I have only two options: delay 11.0 or close the
bug as WORKSFORME. And Vista seems to be really touchy
about other operating systems next to it - google suggests
that it's able to break vista boot with almost all of them.
But it's pretty unusual that so many people report the same
problem with a specific release.

Greetings, Stephan
Gabriel
2008-06-07 16:10:17 UTC
Permalink
Stephan Kulow escribió:
| Hi,
|
| I'm still unable to reproduce a breakage unless I really
| try hard to break it.
|
| So I would be really grateful for everyone having time
| and a spare vista to test - vista can be easily repaired
| if you have an original DVD (these OEM recovery DVDs are
| unfortunately pretty useless ;(
|
| Currently I have only two options: delay 11.0 or close the
| bug as WORKSFORME. And Vista seems to be really touchy
| about other operating systems next to it - google suggests
| that it's able to break vista boot with almost all of them.
| But it's pretty unusual that so many people report the same
| problem with a specific release.
|
| Greetings, Stephan

IMHO delaying 11.0 because of Vista is not the best thing to do. I don't
see way we need to support window issues here.
If someone really needs windows, then install XP.

Again, it's just MY opinion.

- --
Kind regards.
Andras Barna
2008-06-07 16:20:32 UTC
Permalink
my imho is: it's not so easy.
it's a blocker. if a vista user want to try suse and sees that "breaks
vista" wont install it, and we dont need that :)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256
| Hi,
|
| I'm still unable to reproduce a breakage unless I really
| try hard to break it.
|
| So I would be really grateful for everyone having time
| and a spare vista to test - vista can be easily repaired
| if you have an original DVD (these OEM recovery DVDs are
| unfortunately pretty useless ;(
|
| Currently I have only two options: delay 11.0 or close the
| bug as WORKSFORME. And Vista seems to be really touchy
| about other operating systems next to it - google suggests
| that it's able to break vista boot with almost all of them.
| But it's pretty unusual that so many people report the same
| problem with a specific release.
|
| Greetings, Stephan
IMHO delaying 11.0 because of Vista is not the best thing to do. I don't
see way we need to support window issues here.
If someone really needs windows, then install XP.
Again, it's just MY opinion.
- --
Kind regards.
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
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OKcEpsWmykZoM70V81Qzu0k=
=gqon
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---------------------------------------------------------------------
Christian Morales Vega
2008-06-07 16:40:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andras Barna
my imho is: it's not so easy.
it's a blocker. if a vista user want to try suse and sees that "breaks
vista" wont install it, and we dont need that :)
The thing is, if 11.0 is delayed a month there are any waranties that
the problem will be fixed? Up to where I see we are so near to find
the cause (not even the fix) like we were the day the bug were
reported.
One could argue that if there would be enough Vista users the cause
would have already be found through massive testing. If the cause is
not found for 11.0 release is because there are few Vista users, and
so the problem isn't so important.

We should acknowledge that perhaps we don't have the resources to fix
such a problem... we specially lack a resource: Vista copies.
Where is the Microsoft-Novell Interoperability Lab when we need it? ;-)
Jan-Olof Eriksson
2008-06-07 17:07:44 UTC
Permalink
No delays because of Vista. Please.

J-O.E
Alberto Passalacqua
2008-06-07 17:50:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Olof Eriksson
No delays because of Vista. Please.
Give a good reason not to delay for this issue. Vista is around, and it
openSUSE installation will break it, it will be considered openSUSE
fault, not surely Vista fault.

Have other distribution the same issues? If not, how did they solve? Why
the problem was not there in 10.3?

Regards,
Alberto
Oddball
2008-06-07 18:02:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alberto Passalacqua
Post by Jan-Olof Eriksson
No delays because of Vista. Please.
Give a good reason not to delay for this issue. Vista is around, and it
openSUSE installation will break it, it will be considered openSUSE
fault, not surely Vista fault.
Have other distribution the same issues? If not, how did they solve? Why
the problem was not there in 10.3?
Regards,
Alberto
Fear is agood reason, not to delay.
We are not in the need for fear.
Don't be afraid of a dying software firm?
And please, don't be afraid opensuse would be blamed for the faults of
Vista.
Everybody that tried to use it, knows that it can't be dual booted
unless one installs the proper bootloader.
--
Enjoy your time around,


Oddball (Now or never...)


Besturingssysteem: Linux 2.6.25.4-8-default x86_64
Current user: ***@AMD64x2-sfn1
System: openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64)
KDE: 4.0.4 (KDE 4.0.4 >= 20080505) "release 21.1"
Alberto Passalacqua
2008-06-08 18:46:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oddball
Everybody that tried to use it, knows that it can't be dual booted
unless one installs the proper bootloader.
It's simply false. OpenSUSE 10.3 can be properly installed on a system
with an existing installation of Vista, without any kind of manual
intervention.

The other statements of yours are opinions.

Regards,
A.
Oddball
2008-06-08 19:59:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alberto Passalacqua
Post by Oddball
Everybody that tried to use it, knows that it can't be dual booted
unless one installs the proper bootloader.
It's simply false. OpenSUSE 10.3 can be properly installed on a system
with an existing installation of Vista, without any kind of manual
intervention.
I should have been more clear here: All the people i know who tried
vista, were astonished by fact that it was released before it was
finished, and tried to install XP next to it, to wait for the
service-pack that should fix the very many problems.
They all experienced, that it was impossible without the proper bootloader.
My son, a game programmer, had to switch to XP also, because the apps he
uses, were, and still are not ported to Vista.
We experienced the same, and also that in the beginning there were no
drivers for the new Toshiba. After about ten days there were so many
complaints, that allmost all drivers were made ready for XP, now all
works on XP.
So this is not my opinion, but solid facts, experienced by very many people.
Post by Alberto Passalacqua
The other statements of yours are opinions.
Indeed, they are.
And i stand behind them.
You tell me, what is gained by fear? Frustration.
What is gained by frustration? Loss of productivity, and conviction.
What is fear? Fear is the absence of Love.
Name me one decission, you took in fear, that was the right one?

What i mean to say is that you don't know what is going to happen, if.
So yours, and other statements about reactions of people who do not
exist, or who you don't know, that would lead to 'faceloss' of openSuSE,
are also opinions.

It is a fact, that Vista is not what the world expected, and it is not
finished.
To expect something, is usualy dissapointing btw.
Post by Alberto Passalacqua
Regards,
A.
--
Enjoy your time around,


Oddball (Now or never...)


Besturingssysteem: Linux 2.6.25.4-8-default x86_64
Current user: ***@AMD64x2-sfn1
System: openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64)
KDE: 4.0.4 (KDE 4.0.4 >= 20080505) "release 21.1"
Stefan Kunze
2008-06-09 08:43:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oddball
Everybody that tried to use it, knows that it can't be dual booted
unless one installs the proper bootloader.
It's simply false. OpenSUSE 10.3 can be properly installed on a system
with an existing installation of Vista, without any kind of manual
intervention.

The other statements of yours are opinions.

Regards,
A.


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10.3 also had Problems with Dualbooting Vista. I could not get it running on my PC . I suspect that it was because i was running an 64-bit Vista Ultimate but i never had time to do good TS on it. Opensuse 10.3 was also 64-bit. And i know that i was not the only one with this problem in 10.3. The Grub entry was exactly the same like with my XP now. Just didn't want to boot.

I replaced Vista with XP after an memory Upgrade and SP1 destroyed my Vista Installation. But i will see if i can install it on my Laptop. Not sure that i will have the Time though because i have a busy week ahead.

Stefan
Stephan Kulow
2008-06-07 20:02:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alberto Passalacqua
Post by Jan-Olof Eriksson
No delays because of Vista. Please.
Give a good reason not to delay for this issue. Vista is around, and it
openSUSE installation will break it, it will be considered openSUSE
fault, not surely Vista fault.
Have other distribution the same issues? If not, how did they solve? Why
the problem was not there in 10.3?
Tell me please ;(

As I wrote: it is possible with all operating systems to break Vista, but
something in RC1 made it much more likely and we have no idea what it is.

Greetings, Stephan
Martin Schlander
2008-06-08 07:39:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Olof Eriksson
No delays because of Vista. Please.
Vista has at least 15% market share, and as people buy new computers that will
grow. Breaking Vista is suicide.

Is it possible that the problem only occurs when partitions are resized (by
the openSUSE installer)?

If so maybe the installer could say. "You have crappy Vista, please use crappy
Vista partitioning tool to create an empty partition before installing nice
openSUSE".
Stephan Kulow
2008-06-08 07:51:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Schlander
Post by Jan-Olof Eriksson
No delays because of Vista. Please.
Alberto didn't say that, please be careful when quoting.
Post by Martin Schlander
Vista has at least 15% market share, and as people buy new computers that
will grow. Breaking Vista is suicide.
Is it possible that the problem only occurs when partitions are resized (by
the openSUSE installer)?
No, while the original reporter of 396444 did resize, 3-4 of the commentor's
logs did not resize. Including myself.
Post by Martin Schlander
If so maybe the installer could say. "You have crappy Vista, please use
crappy Vista partitioning tool to create an empty partition before
installing nice openSUSE".
No, we did several successul resizes. So while this would be a good advise
in general (to prepare vista out of vista), it's not required - or it
shouldn't be.

Greetings, Stephan
Boyd Lynn Gerber
2008-06-08 15:39:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephan Kulow
Post by Jan-Olof Eriksson
No delays because of Vista. Please.
Alberto didn't say that, please be careful when quoting.
Vista has at least 15% market share, and as people buy new computers th=
at
Post by Stephan Kulow
will grow. Breaking Vista is suicide.
Is it possible that the problem only occurs when partitions are resized=
(by
Post by Stephan Kulow
the openSUSE installer)?
No, while the original reporter of 396444 did resize, 3-4 of the=20
commentor's logs did not resize. Including myself.
If so maybe the installer could say. "You have crappy Vista, please=20
use crappy Vista partitioning tool to create an empty partition before=
=20
Post by Stephan Kulow
installing nice openSUSE".
=20
No, we did several successul resizes. So while this would be a good=20
advise in general (to prepare vista out of vista), it's not required -=20
or it shouldn't be.
The system I reported, I used the vista resize a long time ago before I=20
installed openSUSE 10.3 on the machine. I have only boot vista about 5=20
times. When I first purchased the machine and resized the disk. Once=20
after installing 10.3. Once prior to the openSUSE 11.0 RC1, and then=20
after the openSUSE upgrade/install from 10.3 to 11.0. Sadly I wiped the=20
11.0 install and re-installed 10.3 from my backup. So I do not have any=20
logs. My system does not come with media so it is a real pain to fix. I=
=20
would be willing to try and RC2. But I use this machine for my main work. =
=20
I really can not afford to be down.

--
Boyd Gerber <***@zenez.com>
ZENEZ=091042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047
Hans-Peter Jansen
2008-06-09 20:21:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephan Kulow
Post by Martin Schlander
Post by Jan-Olof Eriksson
No delays because of Vista. Please.
Alberto didn't say that, please be careful when quoting.
Post by Martin Schlander
Vista has at least 15% market share, and as people buy new computers
that will grow. Breaking Vista is suicide.
Is it possible that the problem only occurs when partitions are resized
(by the openSUSE installer)?
No, while the original reporter of 396444 did resize, 3-4 of the
commentor's logs did not resize. Including myself.
Hmm, Stephan, if you can reproduce it without resize, why don't you:
- dd /dev/zero /dev/hdx
- install vista in a way, a resize is not necessary
- copy full /dev/hdx to an image
- install opensuse (proably on another disk)
- compare image with /dev/hdx

It should only modify the bootloader, all other differences are faults IMO.
Show us the outcome, maybe the pattern, that changed gives hints, who's the
bad guy, here.

Other interesting questions:
- does openSUSE mount the ntfs r/w by default during install/later?
- when does vista break - during install or or later, probably from
grub? (Above scheme should give possibilities to explore that (including
selectively restoring the modifications)

I would do that tests for you/opensuse, but
- intentionally don't own a vista license ATM (will probably change around
winter 2009 (aka SP3 timeframe...)
- I'm completely overloaded from my day to day job
- would like to spend much more time to test factory since I suffer from
zypper issues that I'm unable to describe sufficiently yet to file a
useful bug report (as a long time yum user, I finally gave it a go,
since it should be able do a similar job now..)
(and resume issues I'm not even sure are worth a report, since the whole
related ACPI desaster seems unfixable to me ATM (at least for 11.0)

Greetings, Pete

Casual J. Programmer
2008-06-08 07:55:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Schlander
Post by Jan-Olof Eriksson
No delays because of Vista. Please.
Vista has at least 15% market share, and as people buy new computers that will
grow. Breaking Vista is suicide.
Is it possible that the problem only occurs when partitions are resized (by
the openSUSE installer)?
If so maybe the installer could say. "You have crappy Vista, please use crappy
Vista partitioning tool to create an empty partition before installing nice
openSUSE".
---------------------------------------------------------------------
If you think breaking Vista is suicide, why do you assume insulting it
with adjectives like "crappy" will be tolerated ?

Casual
Alberto Passalacqua
2008-06-07 17:44:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gabriel
IMHO delaying 11.0 because of Vista is not the best thing to do. I don't
see way we need to support window issues here.
If someone really needs windows, then install XP.
Again, it's just MY opinion.
In a few words: this is exactly the reason it would make me throw a
distribution away in favour of another one.

It's _impossible_ to think that people using the major opearating system
has to adapt to use openSUSE. Like it or not, it's that simple.

Regards,
Alberto
Alexey Eremenko
2008-06-07 17:46:28 UTC
Permalink
Is there a bug opened?

Open a bug, with a "BLOCKER" rank.
--
-Alexey Eromenko "Technologov"
Carlos E. R.
2008-06-07 18:00:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexey Eremenko
Is there a bug opened?
Open a bug, with a "BLOCKER" rank.
Man, did you read this thread?
Just have a look at the subject line, will you?

- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
Oddball
2008-06-07 17:56:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alberto Passalacqua
Post by Gabriel
IMHO delaying 11.0 because of Vista is not the best thing to do. I don't
see way we need to support window issues here.
If someone really needs windows, then install XP.
Again, it's just MY opinion.
In a few words: this is exactly the reason it would make me throw a
distribution away in favour of another one.
It's _impossible_ to think that people using the major opearating system
has to adapt to use openSUSE. Like it or not, it's that simple.
Regards,
Alberto
Nobody realy cares about vista.
All major laptops manufacturers have written drivers for XP, because the
clientele can't use vista, besides that, many apps don't work with vista
yet.
Vista will be rejected by many, who will wait for XP-sp3, or the new
windows, which is supposed to come someday.

I would suggest to find a solution, but not delay GM release for a
crippled os, just because it has been made by the richest software firm.
--
Enjoy your time around,


Oddball (Now or never...)


Besturingssysteem: Linux 2.6.25.4-8-default x86_64
Current user: ***@AMD64x2-sfn1
System: openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64)
KDE: 4.0.4 (KDE 4.0.4 >= 20080505) "release 21.1"
Andras Barna
2008-06-07 17:59:39 UTC
Permalink
"just because it has been made by the richest software firm."

NOT because that, because the users!
Post by Oddball
Post by Alberto Passalacqua
Post by Gabriel
IMHO delaying 11.0 because of Vista is not the best thing to do. I don't
see way we need to support window issues here.
If someone really needs windows, then install XP.
Again, it's just MY opinion.
In a few words: this is exactly the reason it would make me throw a
distribution away in favour of another one.
It's _impossible_ to think that people using the major opearating system
has to adapt to use openSUSE. Like it or not, it's that simple.
Regards,
Alberto
Nobody realy cares about vista.
All major laptops manufacturers have written drivers for XP, because the
clientele can't use vista, besides that, many apps don't work with vista
yet.
Vista will be rejected by many, who will wait for XP-sp3, or the new
windows, which is supposed to come someday.
I would suggest to find a solution, but not delay GM release for a crippled
os, just because it has been made by the richest software firm.
--
Enjoy your time around,
Oddball (Now or never...)
Besturingssysteem: Linux 2.6.25.4-8-default x86_64
System: openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64)
KDE: 4.0.4 (KDE 4.0.4 >= 20080505) "release 21.1"
---------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Andy
http://blog.sartek.net
Oddball
2008-06-07 18:06:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andras Barna
"just because it has been made by the richest software firm."
NOT because that, because the users!
Most of them massively migrated back to XP....
--
Enjoy your time around,


Oddball (Now or never...)


Besturingssysteem: Linux 2.6.25.4-8-default x86_64
Current user: ***@AMD64x2-sfn1
System: openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64)
KDE: 4.0.4 (KDE 4.0.4 >= 20080505) "release 21.1"
Putrycz, Erik
2008-06-07 18:08:24 UTC
Permalink
Can't you get any help from Microsoft on this with the Novell/MS
agreement?

Erik.
Oddball
2008-06-07 18:11:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Putrycz, Erik
Can't you get any help from Microsoft on this with the Novell/MS
agreement?
Erik.
This is farout the best option.. ;)
--
Enjoy your time around,


Oddball (Now or never...)


Besturingssysteem: Linux 2.6.25.4-8-default x86_64
Current user: ***@AMD64x2-sfn1
System: openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64)
KDE: 4.0.4 (KDE 4.0.4 >= 20080505) "release 21.1"
Cristian Rodríguez
2008-06-07 22:52:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Putrycz, Erik
Can't you get any help from Microsoft on this with the Novell/MS
agreement?
The colaboration between Novell and MS is limited to some very specific
areas, I thought that was clear enough already :P read the FAQ again ;)
--
"Progress is possible only if we train ourselves to think about programs
without thinking of them as pieces of executable code.” - Edsger W.
Dijkstra

Cristian Rodríguez R.
Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH
Research & Development
http://www.opensuse.org/
Casual J. Programmer
2008-06-07 18:09:05 UTC
Permalink
I think Alberto is right, Oddball notwithstanding.

No final release should carry such a burden.

If GM should be rolled out with the shadow of a doubt, it will have to
be published, as to make people aware they are likely going to break
their system.

Who should give such a Distribution a try ? No serious IT person I
should think.

If we want to be renowned as the Distro for Geeks and Freaks, that's the
way to go.

Casual
Post by Oddball
Post by Alberto Passalacqua
Post by Gabriel
IMHO delaying 11.0 because of Vista is not the best thing to do. I don't
see way we need to support window issues here.
If someone really needs windows, then install XP.
Again, it's just MY opinion.
In a few words: this is exactly the reason it would make me throw a
distribution away in favour of another one.
It's _impossible_ to think that people using the major opearating system
has to adapt to use openSUSE. Like it or not, it's that simple.
Regards,
Alberto
Nobody realy cares about vista.
All major laptops manufacturers have written drivers for XP, because the
clientele can't use vista, besides that, many apps don't work with vista
yet.
Vista will be rejected by many, who will wait for XP-sp3, or the new
windows, which is supposed to come someday.
I would suggest to find a solution, but not delay GM release for a
crippled os, just because it has been made by the richest software firm.
Putrycz, Erik
2008-06-07 18:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Not to mention that such bug could make it in the news, spread fast and
make bad reputation for opensuse.

Erik.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: June-07-08 2:09 PM
To: Oddball
Subject: Re: [opensuse-factory] Vista again (bug#396444)
I think Alberto is right, Oddball notwithstanding.
No final release should carry such a burden.
If GM should be rolled out with the shadow of a doubt, it will have to
be published, as to make people aware they are likely going to break
their system.
Who should give such a Distribution a try ? No serious IT person I
should think.
If we want to be renowned as the Distro for Geeks and Freaks, that's the
way to go.
Casual
Post by Oddball
Post by Alberto Passalacqua
Post by Gabriel
IMHO delaying 11.0 because of Vista is not the best thing to do.
I
don't
Post by Oddball
Post by Alberto Passalacqua
Post by Gabriel
see way we need to support window issues here.
If someone really needs windows, then install XP.
Again, it's just MY opinion.
In a few words: this is exactly the reason it would make me throw a
distribution away in favour of another one.
It's _impossible_ to think that people using the major opearating
system
Post by Oddball
Post by Alberto Passalacqua
has to adapt to use openSUSE. Like it or not, it's that simple.
Regards,
Alberto
Nobody realy cares about vista.
All major laptops manufacturers have written drivers for XP, because the
clientele can't use vista, besides that, many apps don't work with vista
yet.
Vista will be rejected by many, who will wait for XP-sp3, or the new
windows, which is supposed to come someday.
I would suggest to find a solution, but not delay GM release for a
crippled os, just because it has been made by the richest software firm.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Casual J. Programmer
2008-06-07 17:02:57 UTC
Permalink
Not sure if this helps, but have you checked Microsofts Technet for
details ?

http://search.technet.microsoft.com/Default.aspx?query=vista
+multiboot&brand=technet&locale=en-us&refinement=

Casual
Post by Stephan Kulow
Hi,
I'm still unable to reproduce a breakage unless I really
try hard to break it.
So I would be really grateful for everyone having time
and a spare vista to test - vista can be easily repaired
if you have an original DVD (these OEM recovery DVDs are
unfortunately pretty useless ;(
Currently I have only two options: delay 11.0 or close the
bug as WORKSFORME. And Vista seems to be really touchy
about other operating systems next to it - google suggests
that it's able to break vista boot with almost all of them.
But it's pretty unusual that so many people report the same
problem with a specific release.
Greetings, Stephan
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Casual J. Programmer
2008-06-07 17:05:09 UTC
Permalink
Also there is

http://blogs.technet.com/aralves/archive/2006/12/18/dual-boot-vista-with-easybcd.aspx

Casual
Post by Stephan Kulow
Hi,
I'm still unable to reproduce a breakage unless I really
try hard to break it.
So I would be really grateful for everyone having time
and a spare vista to test - vista can be easily repaired
if you have an original DVD (these OEM recovery DVDs are
unfortunately pretty useless ;(
Currently I have only two options: delay 11.0 or close the
bug as WORKSFORME. And Vista seems to be really touchy
about other operating systems next to it - google suggests
that it's able to break vista boot with almost all of them.
But it's pretty unusual that so many people report the same
problem with a specific release.
Greetings, Stephan
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Stephan Kulow
2008-06-07 19:39:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Casual J. Programmer
Also there is
http://blogs.technet.com/aralves/archive/2006/12/18/dual-boot-vista-with-ea
sybcd.aspx
I found this tool before - when my own vista was broken, but
it's an exe, so I'm not sure what it helps once you find your
windows unbootable ;(

Greetings, Stephan
Bernhard Walle
2008-06-07 18:00:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephan Kulow
Currently I have only two options: delay 11.0 or close the
bug as WORKSFORME.
I think both options are not good. If the bug cannot be fixed, there
should be a detection of Vista in YaST and if Vista is detected, then a
warning should pop up that the installation of openSUSE may break the
booting of Vista. With a hint how to fix it afterwards. Maybe a link to
the openSUSE Wiki where additional information can be added afterwards.

Then the *user* can decide if it's worth the risk. But we should be
honest to our users! A user that installs openSUSE 11.0 the first time
and gets a broken Windows with all the data lost (for him in the first
place) -- such a user will never ever install Linux (and not only
the SUSE flavour) next X years.

I just remember when I installed SUSE LINUX 6.3 the first time. I
read the manual before installing anything. I didn't install the boot
loader to MBR because that was considered as "dangerous". I installed
the bootloader to a floppy disk and each time I wanted to boot Linux, I
moved that disk into my floppy drive. I took 2 month after I installed
LILO in MBR. And it worked. My Windows 98 never stopped working. And
that was important for me.


Bernhard (that's my private opinion, not as SUSE/Novell employee)
--
Bernhard Walle, SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Architecture Maintenance
Oddball
2008-06-07 18:14:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bernhard Walle
Post by Stephan Kulow
Currently I have only two options: delay 11.0 or close the
bug as WORKSFORME.
I think both options are not good. If the bug cannot be fixed, there
should be a detection of Vista in YaST and if Vista is detected, then a
warning should pop up that the installation of openSUSE may break the
booting of Vista. With a hint how to fix it afterwards. Maybe a link to
the openSUSE Wiki where additional information can be added afterwards.
Then the *user* can decide if it's worth the risk. But we should be
honest to our users! A user that installs openSUSE 11.0 the first time
and gets a broken Windows with all the data lost (for him in the first
place) -- such a user will never ever install Linux (and not only
the SUSE flavour) next X years.
I just remember when I installed SUSE LINUX 6.3 the first time. I
read the manual before installing anything. I didn't install the boot
loader to MBR because that was considered as "dangerous". I installed
the bootloader to a floppy disk and each time I wanted to boot Linux, I
moved that disk into my floppy drive. I took 2 month after I installed
LILO in MBR. And it worked. My Windows 98 never stopped working. And
that was important for me.
Bernhard (that's my private opinion, not as SUSE/Novell employee)
Ofcourse it would be out of the question *not* to warn the users!
Let a user the choice is always the best option in this. We are all users.
Allways be honest.
--
Enjoy your time around,


Oddball (Now or never...)


Besturingssysteem: Linux 2.6.25.4-8-default x86_64
Current user: ***@AMD64x2-sfn1
System: openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64)
KDE: 4.0.4 (KDE 4.0.4 >= 20080505) "release 21.1"
Thomas Meindl
2008-06-07 18:14:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bernhard Walle
Post by Stephan Kulow
Currently I have only two options: delay 11.0 or close the
bug as WORKSFORME.
Have a look at the bug #396444 (
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=396444 ). It seems that our
wizards of oS finaly found what goes wrong - hooray !!!
:-)
Post by Bernhard Walle
I think both options are not good. If the bug cannot be fixed, there
should be a detection of Vista in YaST and if Vista is detected, then a
warning should pop up that the installation of openSUSE may break the
booting of Vista. With a hint how to fix it afterwards. Maybe a link to
the openSUSE Wiki where additional information can be added afterwards.
Then the *user* can decide if it's worth the risk. But we should be
honest to our users! A user that installs openSUSE 11.0 the first time
and gets a broken Windows with all the data lost (for him in the first
place) -- such a user will never ever install Linux (and not only
the SUSE flavour) next X years.
I second that in every respect. To be honest in such situations is the
only right solution.
Peter Czanik
2008-06-07 18:31:23 UTC
Permalink
Hello,
Post by Thomas Meindl
Post by Stephan Kulow
Currently I have only two options: delay 11.0 or close the
bug as WORKSFORME.
Have a look at the bug #396444 (
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=396444 ). It seems that
our wizards of oS finaly found what goes wrong - hooray !!!
:-)
I think, it would be worth to release an RC2 or sync out a fixed
factory. I was one of the affected Vista users. Actually I don't really
care about Vista myself (did not even try to repair the broken install
:-) ), but still find important to get it fixed and get it tested
*before* release, as it could bring very bad press for openSUSE/Novell
(and people asking, what was the MS deal good for :-) ).
I found my Vista DVD, and ready to test!
Bye,
CzP
Alexey Eremenko
2008-06-07 18:46:33 UTC
Permalink
I think, it would be worth to release an RC2 or sync out a fixed factory. I
Yes, if the bug is real, then releasing RC2 makes sense, as it is very
serious bug.
--
-Alexey Eromenko "Technologov"
Stephan Kulow
2008-06-07 20:12:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexey Eremenko
I think, it would be worth to release an RC2 or sync out a fixed factory. I
Yes, if the bug is real, then releasing RC2 makes sense, as it is very
serious bug.
That's the "delay 11.0" option. It seems you guys like to discuss theories,
I wanted vista installs tested with logs. How would a RC2 help if noone with
vista wants to test?

Greetings, Stephan
Roberto Mannai
2008-06-07 20:52:30 UTC
Permalink
Alas, no Vista available for test!
However, I'm in doubt whether this information could be of whatever
interest for tech people:
http://blogs.sun.com/moinakg/entry/solaris_vista_dual_boot_revisited

Greetings
Rob
Post by Stephan Kulow
Post by Alexey Eremenko
I think, it would be worth to release an RC2 or sync out a fixed factory. I
Yes, if the bug is real, then releasing RC2 makes sense, as it is very
serious bug.
That's the "delay 11.0" option. It seems you guys like to discuss theories,
I wanted vista installs tested with logs. How would a RC2 help if noone with
vista wants to test?
Greetings, Stephan
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Putrycz, Erik
2008-06-07 23:47:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roberto Mannai
Alas, no Vista available for test!
We all need vista licences!!

Erik
Ken Schneider
2008-06-08 02:32:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Putrycz, Erik
Post by Roberto Mannai
Alas, no Vista available for test!
We all need vista licences!!
Erik
Maybe we can get a bulk discount. :-))
--
Ken Schneider
SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998
Andreas
2008-06-08 03:05:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Putrycz, Erik
Post by Roberto Mannai
Alas, no Vista available for test!
We all need vista licences!!
Erik
Is there something like a trial download for Vista?
I don't mind downloading and testing it, but I don't want to pay for a real
license.
--
Gruß
Andreas
Patrick Shanahan
2008-06-08 03:38:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andreas
Is there something like a trial download for Vista?
I don't mind downloading and testing it, but I don't want to pay for a real
license.
If they (m$) base the cost to you on realized value, they will pay you
to test vista out of the goodness of their ?heart. But the possible
damage to your hardware and mindset is incalculable :^)
--
Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711
http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2
Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org
Stephan Kulow
2008-06-08 07:40:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roberto Mannai
Alas, no Vista available for test!
However, I'm in doubt whether this information could be of whatever
http://blogs.sun.com/moinakg/entry/solaris_vista_dual_boot_revisited
Yeah, basically this is what we found out meanwhile too ;)

Greetings, Stephan
Casual J. Programmer
2008-06-07 20:52:31 UTC
Permalink
Sorry folks,

my pre-version of vista expired already.

Casual
Post by Stephan Kulow
Post by Alexey Eremenko
I think, it would be worth to release an RC2 or sync out a fixed factory. I
Yes, if the bug is real, then releasing RC2 makes sense, as it is very
serious bug.
That's the "delay 11.0" option. It seems you guys like to discuss theories,
I wanted vista installs tested with logs. How would a RC2 help if noone with
vista wants to test?
Greetings, Stephan
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Gabriel
2008-06-07 22:50:04 UTC
Permalink
Stephan,
An user of the spanish list has vista and 11.0 working fine, but he
installed beta 3 and later updated from factory. And is using lilo.

If you think some info from his configuration could be useful, tel me
what you need and I'll attach it.

- --
Kind regards.
Peter Czanik
2008-06-09 08:15:15 UTC
Permalink
Hello,
Post by Stephan Kulow
Post by Alexey Eremenko
I think, it would be worth to release an RC2 or sync out a fixed factory. I
Yes, if the bug is real, then releasing RC2 makes sense, as it is very
serious bug.
That's the "delay 11.0" option. It seems you guys like to discuss theories,
I wanted vista installs tested with logs. How would a RC2 help if noone with
vista wants to test?
I just finished installing VistaSP1 on my x86 machine and installing the
latest factory right now. I wonder if Vista will be broken again. Doing
an xfce install instead of KDE4 to get results faster :-)
Peter Czanik
2008-06-09 08:43:15 UTC
Permalink
Hello,
Post by Peter Czanik
I just finished installing VistaSP1 on my x86 machine and installing the
latest factory right now. I wonder if Vista will be broken again. Doing
an xfce install instead of KDE4 to get results faster :-)
Just finished installation, and Vista booted without any problems. I
wonder, if it makes any difference: originally I used Vista Business,
and now Vista Ultimate SP1. If you are still interested in logs, let me
know. Bye,
CzP
Stephan Kulow
2008-06-09 09:46:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Czanik
Hello,
Post by Peter Czanik
I just finished installing VistaSP1 on my x86 machine and installing the
latest factory right now. I wonder if Vista will be broken again. Doing
an xfce install instead of KDE4 to get results faster :-)
Just finished installation, and Vista booted without any problems. I
wonder, if it makes any difference: originally I used Vista Business,
and now Vista Ultimate SP1. If you are still interested in logs, let me
know. Bye,
No, we have enough successful logs by now - the bug is WORKSFORME ;)

Greetings, Stephan
--
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
Lukas Ocilka
2008-06-09 09:54:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Czanik
Hello,
Post by Peter Czanik
I just finished installing VistaSP1 on my x86 machine and installing the
latest factory right now. I wonder if Vista will be broken again. Doing
an xfce install instead of KDE4 to get results faster :-)
Just finished installation, and Vista booted without any problems. I
wonder, if it makes any difference: originally I used Vista Business,
and now Vista Ultimate SP1. If you are still interested in logs, let me
know. Bye,
Successful story:

openSUSE 10.3
1.) Clean Vista Home Premium (sda1, boot flag set)
2.) Installing 10.3, GRUB in MBR, all in Extended partition
3.) Windows loader is replaced with MBR
sda1 (first 512 bytes) is untouched

openSUSE 11.0
1.) Clean Vista Home Premium (sda1, boot flag set)
2.) Installing 10.3, GRUB in MBR, all in Extended partition
3.) Windows loader is replaced with MBR
sda1 (first 512 bytes) is untouched

I'll try the only known unsuccessful story (consulted with juhliarik)
11.0 in primary partition, Generic code in MBR
It should be quite easy to restore part of MBR checked by Vista.

Bye
Lukas
Lukas Ocilka
2008-06-09 10:45:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lukas Ocilka
I'll try the only known unsuccessful story (consulted with juhliarik)
11.0 in primary partition, Generic code in MBR
It should be quite easy to restore part of MBR checked by Vista.
OK, that worked!
Info got from Jozef Uliarik, found by Steffen Winterfeldt(?).

Before installation:
#
dd if=/dev/sda skip=440 bs=1 count=6 of=sda_crc

openSUSE 11.0
1.) Clean Vista Home Premium (sda1, boot flag set)
2.) Installing 11.0, Generic code MBR, Set active flag,
all in Primary parts
3.) Windows loader is replaced with Generic code

After that, Vista doesn't boot, so I booted to the rescue system and called:

dd if=sda_crc seek=440 bs=1 count=6 of=/dev/sda

and rebooted.
After reboot, Vista loads via GRUB. openSUSE works too.

Have a nice day
Lukas
Stephan Kulow
2008-06-07 20:10:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Czanik
I found my Vista DVD, and ready to test!
Then provide logs of RC1 or factory, that would help
already. Unless you write generic MBR code, there is
nothing fixed ;(

Greetings, Stephan
Michael Mientus
2008-06-07 18:08:16 UTC
Permalink
I would support the delay of the release if the bug could be reproduced.

I think we would be in a better position to release 11 on time if we
asked for help from the wider community and still could not reproduce
the bug. We could spread the word via
opensuse.org/slashdot/blogs/word-of-mouth/etc.

Mike
Stephan Kulow
2008-06-08 07:43:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephan Kulow
Hi,
I'm still unable to reproduce a breakage unless I really
try hard to break it.
So I would be really grateful for everyone having time
and a spare vista to test - vista can be easily repaired
if you have an original DVD (these OEM recovery DVDs are
unfortunately pretty useless ;(
Currently I have only two options: delay 11.0 or close the
bug as WORKSFORME. And Vista seems to be really touchy
about other operating systems next to it - google suggests
that it's able to break vista boot with almost all of them.
But it's pretty unusual that so many people report the same
problem with a specific release.
OK, I did yet another install yesterday with GRUB in the MBR
and it all worked fine. So after we fix the issues that we
found by now, the rest is really WORKSFORME and we can release
(I would still love to understand what went wrong for the other
reporters, but such things can happen). Thanks everyone.

Greetings, Stephan
Pete Connolly
2008-06-08 11:35:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephan Kulow
Hi,
I'm still unable to reproduce a breakage unless I really
try hard to break it.
So I would be really grateful for everyone having time
and a spare vista to test - vista can be easily repaired
if you have an original DVD (these OEM recovery DVDs are
unfortunately pretty useless ;(
Currently I have only two options: delay 11.0 or close the
bug as WORKSFORME. And Vista seems to be really touchy
about other operating systems next to it - google suggests
that it's able to break vista boot with almost all of them.
But it's pretty unusual that so many people report the same
problem with a specific release.
Greetings, Stephan
Well, I installed RC1 with KDE4 from the live/installer CD, and I'm able
to boot Vista (Home premium edition) without problems. I'll update the
bug report with the y2log and y2log_bootloader files. They might be
useful to somebody. The grub set up added two windows boot options, one
of which won't boot since it's pointing at the wrong disk.

Very fast installation, btw. Really slick!

Cheers

Pete
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